46 Comments
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malharbarai
Great article Neal!!
I agree with Jure, that mere brand awareness cannot be treated as a measure of influence and I do have big reservations on the scores, since they are easy to be gamed.
Loved the views of others!! Thanks for sharing, substantiates my view that Klout scores is just a ‘game’
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Thanks for the comment – and glad you found a “voice” that resonated with you!
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Great article, Neal! I also agree with Jure: behavior can’t be measured unless you are able to visually assess what the person’s intentions were. As we have witnessed with the latest controversy of the Like button on Facebook, no one knows what someone’s intentions may be when they click this button. Therefore, behavior is difficult to measure.
Same can be said with sharing content (i.e., this blog post) throughout your network. You could assume I enjoyed the article and wanted to share it with those in my network and help them stay aware, or you could assume I shared it simply to help give you exposure as a colleague and friend. At the end of the day, I am the only one who knows my behavior.
Influence can be somewhat measured based on content sharing. When content (i.e., this blog post) is shared, it is given exposure to other networks it might not have had the chance to find – what I call the Ripple Effect. What I would like to see is a solid measurement of what happened as a result of that sharing: did you buy the product or service, did the article inspire you to write one of your own, did the information help you in a 1-2-1 client meeting?
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Awesome compilation, Neal. You totally rock for bringing all these POVs together in one spot!!
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Thank YOU Mari – this post would not have been the same without your expert input! On controversial topics, it really does help to get the broader perspective – and help everyone find a particular POV that resonates with them. Looking forward to doing more of these in the future!
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I agree with you, Mari Smith. What Neal Schaffer did not indicate in his post was that none of us had prior access to what the others would be saying (at least the answers that weren’t pulled from existing blog posts).
In retrospect, given the calibre of answers provided, I think I would have been more nervous about articulating my opinion if I’d had a sense in advance of the great commentary (and areas I hadn’t considered) about how the final post would read.
Quite the mammoth task for Neal to compile and then also comment on each and every response, too.
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Thanks for the compliment Judy, and you’re very welcome. First of all, I need to thank Raymond Morin for the idea, but I didn’t want to make this a mere compilation – in that case, what is my own value-add as a blogger? That’s why I approached everyone individually asking the same question without letting them know that I was talking to others – just as if we were having a conversation offline. I felt that would add to a natural conversation. Then, it’s as if I came back from an event where I met you all, internalized your comments, and then wrote a summary which I could send to my clients. That was the thought process – and I look forward to doing more of these social media roundtables, especially on “controversial” topics, in the future!
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Judy, When doing a compilation piece like this, it’s great when it’s clear that each responder is speaking in their own voice, not influenced by the other responders. I always appreciate your comments because you have a definitive POV and don’t mince words. Glad to know you.
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Thanks, Susan. By not “mincing” words I suppose you are referring to my use of “smirk” in the answer. Keep in mind that much of my working life was in-house in the financial and education sectors. The CFO (professional accountant) is going to be much more interested in how correctly he projected growth in revenue for the next year or how well she did investing the company assets (during the continued economic downturn), than how much he or she cares about a personal “Klout score.”
I have to say that I think “social influence” platforms are ones that appeal the most–by far–to marketers. At its heart it is ego-driven, so I can see how well it plays into marketing campaigns.
Forbes just named German Chancellor Angela Merkel as the most powerful woman in the world for the second year in a row on its annual list (followed by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and then Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff–you have to love these strong female politicians!). Anyhow, before entering politics, Chancellor Merkel was a research scientist. Forbes named her #1 and noted her “resolve in preserving the European Union and her INFLUENCE over the euro zone’s ongoing debt crisis.”
I just checked her Klout score: it’s 55. Somehow I don’t think the Chancellor would care…..
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It is so refreshing to read a post that seeks to ground the discussion of ‘social influence’ from the marketing/brand perspective versus from the individual perspective (although many of the responses don’t seem to focus on brands.) In my job, I’ve had the opportunity to meet with many of the key players in the ‘social influence’ sphere. No surprise: The heart of the discussion on this subject surrounds data/ analytics. Marketers are approached by numerous agencies and platforms daily with similar sounding pitches. I believe that the players with the most robust and highly regarded data will ultimately win and we will quickly see a consolidation where the leaders break out from the pack (e.g., Buddy Media bought by Salesforce, Wildfire bought by Google.) As it relates specifically to Klout, I think their new algorithm is a definite step in the right direction for individuals and also for brands seeking insight. For the many large brands that use Radian6, Klout gets a big credibility boost from its extension association. Is Klout perfect? Of course not. But nothing is and most large brand marketers are smart enough to understand that. Is Klout the only game in town? Of course not, but they are the one to beat.
Neal, I liked the consolidation approach. I did something similar for a work post where Kred, Conde Nast, Unruly Media and Disqus each provided their perspective on the subject of ‘social influence’ as a key component of the paid, owned and earned media mix. If you didn’t see it, here’s the link: http://bit.ly/SsZiYn
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Thank you so much for the comment Susan! I actually used Twitter DM to ask others to contribute, so I couldn’t go into too much detail as to the perspective I was looking for, but I think that most understood it was from a corporate perspective, even if they did talk about their own score as an example of the accuracy of the algorithm.
Regardless of what we all think about Klout, I believe it is early days for companies truly using Big Data to analyze and engage, especially with regards to influencer marketing, so I think you are bang on with your analysis of the importance of Big Data and why other social media companies have been bought out by large enterprises because of it.
As for the consolidation approach, glad to see that we have similar minds
Thanks for sharing the link!-
Thanks, Neal. Digiday is the master of the consolidation approach. My work blog was patterned off of theirs. You took it a step further!
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[...] Read the rest of the comments at Windmill Networking – 13 Experts Chime in on Klout’s New Algorithm to Determine Social influence [...]
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Klout is a game people play. Not much more…not much less.
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The perspective on this post is how businesses should look at the Klout score. As you say, there are definitely many who try to “game” the system – but not everyone! And whether we like it or not, businesses are looking for ways to segment social media users, so I don’t think the concept of a “Klout” score is going away anytime soon…
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You really did a great job compiling this Neal. Thanks!
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Appreciate your contribution!
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Thanks for the comment Lisa – and sorry that your comment somehow got into my Disqus spam filter! #boohiss
All of what you say is well said. There can never be any algorithm that can perfectly measure all of that. It doesn’t mean that businesses won’t continue to invest money to try to perfect one – and businesses will keep looking for ways to better segment social media users. We can only hope that brands use these numbers as one small metric in a gigantic holistic approach to understand what “influences” people.
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Neal:
I agree with Raymond that new Klout is largely and imitation of Kred, not innovation. (I wrote a post about it on servicecocreation.com)
Some of the imitation of Kred by Klout, such as more data and transparency is good. But including Wikipedia and +K in the measure makes a dubious measure even murkier. I suspect it will be some other firm that ultimately comes up with a useful influence measure.
- Gary
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Thanks for chiming in, Gary, and I agree with your assessment. When I met the CEO of Kred in London, he was talking about how social media users and brands wanted transparency in scoring, and that that was one of their main missions. Clearly this revision by Klout is in response to the emergence of Klout as a competitor.
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What has been missed in the entire discussion is how Klout actually works. It relies on the programming APIs provided by the social media platforms to access people’s profiles to measure their social media influence. The problem is that these APIs are designed to facilitate the sharing of information between social media platforms and third party developers. They were not designed to provide social media profiles in a way that can be quantified and measured.
The fact that Klout is heavily biased towards Facebook and Twitter activity has more to do with the maturity of these social media platform’s APIs as opposed to their importance in the social media ecosystem. Klout is and probably will be for quite some time a hack. They are attempting to use the social media APIs in ways that they were not designed for.
For now Klout offers limited paternalistic explanations for how the ranking system works and one is left with the impression the Klout algorithm is more voodoo magic then actual science. I think if the Klout score is to be taken seriously it will need to be totally transparent with how it scores and accesses social media profiles.
I understand that Klout may view these scoring algorithms as a trade secret/work in progress and perhaps they worry that social media platforms may change their APIs if they knew how they were being used but if Klout is to be taken seriously it needs greater transparency. I think Klout is protecting their scoring algorithms because for the most part they are mostly hacks and voodoo magic.
The accountability firestorm that could be potentially launched if they were to be opened up I think one that Klout is not prepared to answer at this stage in its young career. Klout asks for our co-operation and openness so it can assess our social media presence. I think it is only fair that we get the same back.
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Todd – You bring up an excellent point. You can only analyze what the platforms provide you, right? That’s why I think most of these algorithm have always been biased towards Twitter because you can extract the most information from there. On the other hand, LinkedIn has always been conservative as to what information they give out, and even Facebook has had to walk the line of valuing its users privacy.
It would be interesting to see if young companies like Klout could handle it if all of these platforms suddenly doubled or tripled the amount of APIs they were willing to allow 3rd parties to access.
You almost begin to wonder when a “big player” will come in and buy out Klout, Kred, or PeerIndex…
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If there is any company that is in a position to collect, analyse and present data from across multiple networks it is Google. Since Google is trying hard to get into social media I would not be surprised if they get into social network scoring with a heavy bias towards the Google+ platform.
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Excellent point Todd. You wonder what their grand plans are for Google Plus… I think we’ve only seen 1% of what they plan to do.
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I do like what you have to say, @twitter-17150586:disqus . Even though I’m Klout agnostic, personally, it does annoy me that Klout keeps telling me that my score will improve if I add in my Facebook account, as I’ve opted to not have one.
I don’t want to be scored or defined on whether or not I have/include a Facebook account!
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Socialplanetmarketing
The majority of the social networks that Klout uses to measure influence will be gone in 10 years, so Klout will always be chasing after the wind. Klout will never come close to attaining an accurate view of a person’s true influence.
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The most interesting part of this whole debate is what the philosophers would call an ontological issue: just what is The Thing Called Klout that Klout purports to measure?
Since I’ve been working in trust definition and metrics for over a decade now, some of the debate sounds very familiar. Trust, like influence, is a concept that simply has to be understood contextually. Are you talking about trusting, being trusted, or the end result of that interaction? Are you talking about credibility, reliability, or a sense of intimacy? Is it behavioral, or intentional? What are the trade-offs of using reputation vs. behavioral data?
I’m with those who emphasize the relative metrics. Influence on Twitter OR Pinterest is more meaningful than influence on Twitter AND Pinterest.
Similarly, I’m with those who emphasize data over methodology, and behavior over testimonials. Anytime you can show people who have been influenced, you have data on effect, and can infer cause; if you’re only working with cause, the assumption of effect is a lot weaker.
Finally, I think Judy Gombita is on to something when she says (I’m paraphrasing) that Klout’s value lies more in marketing than in PR. I may want to market to people with high Klout; but for me to claim that I have high Klout doesn’t impress anyone. Similarly, I want to do business with people that I trust; but proclaiming to others that I am trustworthy just sounds contradictory, as in “humility is my best quality.”
And more shall be revealed, I’m sure.
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Charles, thank you so much for adding your perspective to this conversation. You bring up some thought-provoking issues that un-peel a new layer in our understanding of whether or not we can ever calculate such a metric as well as what value that metric might not have after all. As you say, more shall be revealed, but at the least I hope this opens up the eyes of businesses who simply want to use the metric at face value…
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Thanks for the positive feedback, Charles. I may make use of your “humility is my best quality” quote down the road! Maybe I should give you a Klout point in humility, in fact.
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Nice one Judy!
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I also wanted to indicate Charles that I appreciate the fact that you recognize there IS a difference between public relations and marketing. It’s a constant battle I have, particularly with marketers (who dominate many of the social media channels):
1. A recognition that it IS a separate discipline.
2. Recognition that it is stand-alone to be most effective. By that I mean that it doesn’t occupy a small corner under The Big Marketing Tent.
3. (To quote Sean Williams) “All marketing is communication, but not all communication [or public relations] is marketing.” Meaning that public relations remit is much wider/bigger than simply “marketing PR” and/or consumers. There are a lot of stakeholders/publics, above and beyond consumers/shareholders.I see Klout’s area (or effectiveness) to being limited almost entirely to marketing.
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[...] lot of debate and discussion about “Social Influence”. I particularly rated Neal Schaffer’s post on this in which he sought the opinion of 13 experts – balanced and packed full of common [...]
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Excellent article – great how you sourced opinion from multiple voices of authority. Personally, I
could talk all day about Social Influence and the failings of the free
tools. Klout grates me because it boasts that it is the “Standard for
Influence” with its users at its core. We’re not at its core – we’re
merely digital playthings for its affiliate marketing programme. Here’s
the post I wrote on it recently – fair play to PeerIndex CEO, Azeem, in
posting a quick comment on my piece. http://digitalmusings.net/does-social-influence-really-matter/ -
Thanks for chiming in and sharing Dan!
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No problem – the subject of inlfuence always generates healthy debate!
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Indeed!
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[...] 13 Experts Chime In on Klout’s New Algorithm to Determine Social Influence (windmillnetworking.com) [...]
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[...] are pinning things (note that “I have no Pinterest” h/t Mike Zavarello) handing out Klout points regarding influence, sharing their geo-location about favourite [...]
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[...] among others in industry, takes the position that the measure of a student’s social media influence with metrics such [...]
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[...] critical social platforms, services or tools can and will change the rules of the game (did I say Klout?) or, worse, pull the plug (more likely, the Cat 5e wires will be yanked from the network [...]
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[...] Neal Schaffer, Founder and editor-in-chief of Windmill Networking, 13 Experts Chime In on Klout’s New Algorithm to Determine Social Influence [...]
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[...] we are talking social influence, this post by Neal Schaffer cannot be missed since he takes opnion about 13 experts about Klout and it’s [...]
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[...] While the concept of influence marketing and the importance (or lack thereof) of influencer scores such as Klout still sparks debate in many circles, the integration of social scoring into the most popular social media dashboards means that this is a topic that will continue to engage social media marketers into 2013. Fellow instructor of social media marketing at Rutgers University Mark Schaefer provides a good introduction into influence marketing, Klout, and social scoring. Additional reading: 13 Experts Chime In on Klout’s New Algorithm to Determine Social Influence. [...]
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[...] 13 Experts Chime In on Klout’s New Algorithm to Determine Social Influence (August 2012) [...]
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[...] influencer marketing has risen with the likes of Klout Perks, exclusive Kred events, and the rise of Social Media Brand [...]
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[...] 89. Klout Use this tool to find out what your “Klout score” is. Connect your social networks to Klout (Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn) and then it crunches this data and gives you an overall score. There has been much controversy about Klout’s scoring and how their algorithms work, I wrote a post here about it. They did however recently change their algorithms, another useful post which lots of experts chimed in on (including myself!) is here. [...]



















